pablo - email - url
I’d always understood that raptors actually kill their food, while scavengers, such as the vultures, only find food that is already dead. By this definition, the Bald Eagle is not a raptor but a scavenger. (I’ll leave it to others to work that metaphor about the symbol of our country.)
I’ve often wondered what would happen if I stretched out on the ground in some open area and summoned the patience to lie still long enuf to see if some vultures would come down to me for a meal (not that they would get it, of course).
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 07:29:04
Wayne - email - url
I haven’t even googled this to see if it’s true or just legend, Pablo, but I do recall the story that Benjamin Franklin argued passionately against the bald eagle as the US symbol. He much preferred the wild turkey as a more noble, reputable bird.
I have done exactly what you’re describing. I haven’t attracted any more attention than when I’m sitting out reading on the south deck, and the attention I think I’m getting might just be random surveys (we really do have a lot of turkey vultures around here - I can see literally hundreds every day).
I understand they have excellent telescopic vision, but they also operate by olfactory sense and that may be a more important cue. Try going a week without a shower!
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 07:38:13
bev - email - url
I’ll take a shot at the raptor question. According to the dictionary in my MacBook, the word raptor is from the Latin word for “plunderer”. Sibley’s field guide puts the Accipitridae, Cathartidae (Vultures), and Falconidae under Diurnal Raptors. However it does comment (p. 106): Recent research suggests that New World vultures are moe closely related to storks than to hawks and eagles; some authorities even merge vultures and storks into a single family. In this book, vultures are retained in their traditional position alongside hawks and eagles because of the strong (even if only superficial) resemblance between the groups.
The Peterson Field Guiides' “Hawks” also refers to Vultures as raptors – Back cover states: All 39 species of North American hawks and other diurnal raptors, including eagles, falcons and vultures. Perhaps it’s not so surprising that they are included in with the other raptors. In both the Turkey Vulture and Black Vulture sections, it mentioned that there have been isolated reports of Turkey Vultures catching live fish, and attacking live animals (usually sick or incapacitated). Of the Black Vulture, it says they are more aggressive and reported to fish, and attack live, prey, especailly newborn pigs and other livestock, and even skunks.
Anyhow, interesting question, Wayne. I knew that vultures were listed in the Raptor section of my field guides, but was always a little reluctant to call them raptors as I tend to think of that word as descriping something that actively hunts for live prey. However, if the term refers to a “plunderer” then that fits okay for the vultures after all.
On camera lenses, for smaller stuff, I do think getting closer to a thing usually gets a better shot than zooming in with a longer lens. I find that a lot of people shoot insects from a distance. Sometimes it works as you can get the whole insect in focus, but usually the background is also in focus and that makes the insect not stand out so well (no bokeh). I’m always shooting at the low end of the lens on the CP8800. Just use the extended range of it for shooting things like birds and mammals at a great distance.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:06:59
bev - email - url
Oops on all the italics up above. Try to get fancy with a quotation and see what happens! (-:
Regarding vultures checking things out... a few years ago, while out working in my flower garden (back when I was a much more diligent gardener), a vulture soared down to about 8 or 10 feet above the ground and silently glided through the garden, it’s neck bent down so that it could get a good look at the ground. The object of interest was my dog that was lying stretched out on her side on the lawn near to where I was working. The vulture was so close that I could see that odd wavering that they do as their wings tip slightly from side to side. It was a very foggy morning and a little eerie seeing such a big bird silently appearing from the mist, with just the slightest whoosh of wings as it passed through. I have to guess it was attracted by the sight of the dog, but that suggests that its eyesight must be incredibly acute to spot a small target through the fog – especially as the vultures around here usually patrol from great heights. I do agree that they are probably mainly attracted by scent as we’ve found them feeding on remains in forests and I don’t think they could find those by sight - but then again, maybe they could. Interesting birds in any case.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:16:24
Wayne - email - url
Recent research suggests that New World vultures are moe closely related to storks than to hawks and eagles; some authorities even merge vultures and storks into a single family.
Thanks, Bev! I’ll have to look into that. I do love phylogeny, which sometimes results in the most surprising associations. That would either move vultures into another order entirely (Ciconiiformes), or move storks into the Falconiformes! Either way it sort of blows your mind.
I did notice, and meant to mention in response to Pablo, that vultures will attack live prey, but not perhaps with the raptor mode so much as with guerilla tactics.
Just so long as they’re protected, which I do think they should be, given their extreme importance in the ecosystem!
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:20:25
Wayne - email - url
Bev - fixed it! Not that it was a problem for me!
I suppose that the word “raptor” is like the words “lichen”, "beggar-ticks" or “beggar-lice”, and “algae” - polyphyleticisms compounded by common name.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:29:53
Mark - email
In common usage, it appears that vultures should be considered raptors. Merriam-Webster online defines a raptor as a bird of prey, which they then define as “ a carnivorous bird (as a hawk, falcon, or vulture) that feeds wholly or chiefly on meat taken by hunting or on carrion.”
I also found it interesting that “raptor” comes from the same Latin root as “rape.” I presume that rape in what might be the more common sense today of forced sexual contact has wandered a little further from the original meaning of despoil, rob or forcibly carry away. I also note that M-W online also gives “an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force” ahead of unlawful or forcible sexual contact as the meaning for the noun form. I cannot remember the last time I saw “rape” used in the former context.
But, back to vultures (to borrow your form of amusement, which also amuses me) ... Wayne, have you seen a flock of roosting vultures spreading their wings to the morning sun? I first saw that down at Big Bend National Park, but more recently I saw it on a road near our house. It’s quite a sight.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:38:26
bev - email - url
Thanks for fixing the italics - I also spotted a grammatical error (It’s instead of its - sometimes I’m not too swift in the mornings!). Don’t worry, you don’t have to fix that one!
I thought that was interesting about the storks too. I’d like to know a bit more about that. Must do a bit more checking into that.
Oh, I meant to mention about the vultures attacking Swimming pool covers, vinyl seat covers, plastic flowers at cemeteries. Maybe they’ve got Turkey Vultures mixed up with these vultures. (-:
And also meant to mention how neat those vultures are with the bright blue sky in the background. Such cheerful vulture photos!
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:39:54
name
All I know is a group of them is called a kettle of vultures and that I’m going to get a self-stabilizing zoom lens for my Canon just as soon as I can save enough money for it. Between my eyes and my hands, life is getting increasingly out of focus, as indicated by my photos.
Actually, I don’t think they are raptors. They aren’t predators, they merely work in sanitation. But that’s probably not a correct answer.
P.S. Coincidentally, I have a photo of a flock of roosting vultures up at my place this morning.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:44:33
vicki - email - url
That was me- forgot to type in the essentials again. And I sincerly doubt they would look twice at you Pablo. Nothing personal.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:46:09
Wayne - email - url
Mark - yes, “rape” - L. rapere, to seize or snatch, and “raptor” - L. raptor, plunderer, past participle of rapere.
I actually checked a couple of dictionaries, with some disappointment, before I posted. I’m rather compulsive that way, and it urks me no end that my students, by far the majority, basically have no idea what a dictionary is. Mine sit (note agreement in number) less than 30 cm from me at all times when I’m at the computer. Did I ever tell you I won First Prize in the State of Florida Latin contests? Yep, ca 1971 - the category was Derivatives.
I have not seen vultures spreading their wings. As a consolation prize I have seen cormorants spreading their wings, and I have been startled (to put it lightly) by about a hundred vultures taking off from a water oak just north of the house when I disturbed them roosting in the early evening.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:52:07
Wayne - email - url
Vicki - the vultures in the spanish moss-laden tree are great! They’re even spreading their wings! And honestly, you even storks and vultures on the same page. You are a monophyletic natural!
I sympathize with the eyes thing. It was this year that I have finally begun using my reading glasses in earnest when working with students, though I refuse to hang them on a chain around my neck.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:56:47
bev - email - url
Mark - Yes, that’s interesting about the common origin or raptor and rape from the Latin “to plunder, seize”. I have an older dictionary that I sometimes like to use to look up words (printed in 194
and it mentions all of the seizing of things, etc.. ahead of a final definition under “legal” of unlawful sexual contact. When you think of references such as Pope’s poem, “Rape of the Lock” or various paintings of “Rape of the Sabine Women”, common use of the word was definitely quite different a couple of centuries ago. I can’t imagine anyone using those titles in this day and age.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 08:59:07
Wayne - email - url
Bev - I had to laugh at that reference. Our society is so damn screwed up! I noted this morning, looking through quite a few pages, that our ancestors had quite different views of vultures (as they did a lot of things, of course, some good, some not so good). Vultures saved us from a sun that had drawn too close to the earth, you know!
Honestly there are times when I think I have more in common with people several thousand years ago than I do with most of my contemporaries.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:00:05
Laura - email - url
I want to correct Pablo in that Bald Eagles are not strictly scavengers - they will take live prey. One of my first sightings of a Bald Eagle was seeing it pick off a black duck among the many that winter in the marshes near Atlantic City. Snow geese are also popular prey.
I think the raptor classification also has something to do with the killing power of their feet and talons - not all raptors acutually kill with their feet, but the strength to grasp and hold prey is something that vultures lack.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:00:58
Wayne - email - url
Laura confirms something that I had in the back of my mind about functional, aggressive use of talons. I think it may be that that delineates the proper distinction of being a raptor.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:08:17
bev - email - url
Well, now I’ve just gotten one of those weird smilies that seem to pop up form time to time! I seem to be having a bad morning for typos! (-:
Interesting about the dictionaries, Wayne. I love dictionaries and have quite a few, although I must say that I’m enjoying the one that comes with the Mac O/S. I guess I’m reaching for my old friends a little less often these days. How cool about winning the prize in the State of Florida latin contests! What a great foundation for work in the field of biology. At university, I studied Greek, which is also useful. However, I was never a great at it, although did well. I’m afraid I was greatly intimidated by my professor, a tiny man with glasses and owlish eyes who would stare us down while we reading aloud in class. I gave me a terrible scolding one day after I pronounced Salamis too much like “salami” for his taste. The worst of it was, after I pronounced it that way, every other person in the class that he had read the same passages pronounced it like “salami” too! He was practically beside himself with me after that episode! Perhaps I should have studied Latin instead. (-:
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:10:11
Mark - email
"I refuse to hang them on a chain around my neck."
Oops. I do that. Not a chain, actually, but one of those shoe-lace-like things. I am so used to it that if I wear my reading glasses without the shoelace, I sometimes take them off my face and then drop them onto the floor. It took me a while to get over my vanity about not having to wear glasses at the ripe old age of whatever it was when I finally realized I couldn’t read the fine print. I didn’t want to be like my non-glasses-wearing father, who went in to have his eyes examined, and the doctor said he didn’t know how my father found his way into the office.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:13:27
Wayne - email - url
Bev - Dead Language Teachers! Oh yes. My Latin teacher was a tempermental Irish woman, Mrs. Weichmann. She flashed her eyes at you and you just slunk down in your seat, even me! Periodically she would slowly wave her entire arm in a semicircle and gush on some aspect of Roman culture. First year students were slaves, second year were citizens, and third year students were gods and goddesses. We even had an annual dinner where everyone had to play their roles.
I never made it to third year (I took early graduation and high-tailed it to FSU, where I took *Russian*), and Mrs. Weichmann, who had such plans for me, never spoke to me again once she understood my plans.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:18:52
bev - email - url
I’ve just looked up “raptor” in this older dictionary, and it doesn’t list “raptor” but instead, “raptores”, and states it as being derived from “a robber” (from rapio, I seize). Then goes on to define the adjective “raptorial” as pertaining to the Raptores or birds of pray; living by rapine or prey; adapted to the seizing of prey. Which then brings us back to what Laura has mentioned about the feet of most birds of prey being able to seize things, a trait that vultures lack - although, in the sense of “stealing” things and dragging them off, vultures are very efficient when it comes to dragging dead raccoons (even huge ones) off of the pavement on a busy highway. There’s the snatch-and-run definition coming into play.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:25:17
bev - email - url
Wayne - lol.. yes... Dead Language Teachers! I think my prof had great plans for me, despite how badly I mangled my readings, but I took off and studied Spanish next! (I’m afraid i’m just a Jack of all languages and master of none). Classics courses were great fun though. I did a combined degree in art history and English lit, so took quite a few courses in Roman and Greek civilization, art, etc... The profs tended to be incredibly into what they were teaching – yes, doing things like having statue charades for entertainment - guess which statue you’re posing as, and stuff like that. The most passionate prof was from Greece and went nuts talking about Odysseus. Loved his classes. Btw, at our university, a lot of the Latin profs came out of Scotland.
You know what? I think robin is going to be sorry she’s in a different time zone and is missing out on this lively conversation about raptors.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:38:06
Mark - email
Latin? That’s what we Romans speak, isn’t it? We always supected that our Latin teacher loved it so much because it was her native language.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:38:14
Wayne - email - url
Mark - poor Dead Language Teachers. All of them had those native languages!
I think I was probably right on target for The Change - my eyes began to fail at closeup focus in a rapid manner a year or two ago, and there was absolutely no mistaking it. It was classic. Now if I don’t have contacts in (which I absolutely must - I cannot even see the E at the top of the chart without them) then I don’t need reading glasses at all. As a consequence, in the last two years I’ve gone from wearing contacts all the time to wearing them only when I’m not reading. A complicated life.
Bev - After Mrs. Weichmann I never approached classics again. Except for one period, on my own, when I discovered Margaret Visser at York University in Toronto.
Robin and roger seem to be fairly early risers, but perhaps not quite so much as us 4 AM'ers.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 09:50:39
bev - email - url
Further to what I mentioned above about vultures tugging prey off of the road - that is always done by dragging using their beaks and never lifting prey with their feet.
Wayne - I’m at that weird stage where I seem to see fine without glasses most of the time, but in poor light, I notice that my vision isn’t quite up to where it should be. Very fine print on product labels is starting to be impossible to read without reading glasses - but everyone seems to be saying that these days - guess it’s all the “warnings” they try to cram onto the labels.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:06:34
robin andrea - email - url
I loved this raptor- latin- dictionary discussion this morning, but I slept until 6:30 and missed the entire thing. I have the same Sibleys and dictionaries for reference, so I wouldn’t have been able to add anything, except that I have seen eagles hunting. Great photos of the vultures, Wayne. I once told my own vulture story to Bev. It happened nearly 25 years ago in Eugene, Or. I was living out in the boonies on a sheep farm, in a rented trailer with my first husband. He went off to work one morning, and I went out into the field and noticed a downed sheep. I went over to inspect and it appeared that she had died giving birth. As I was looking around, out from behind a tree walked this huge vulture. He headed slowly over to the carcass looking very serious, and like a strange feathered minister about to recite prayers for the dead.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:09:34
Mark - email
I was trying to remember if I have seen vultures eating the roadkill we so often see near our house. There are lots of vultures around, but it seems that I see only crows eating the roadkill. Maybe there is too much traffic for the vultures. The crows are pretty smart about cars.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:11:48
Wayne - email - url
Bev - dim light. Yes. In bright sunlight, I can still read without reading glasses, but in ambient room light, no way. There are several folks, both male and female, who are going through this simultaneously with me in the fire department, and it’s comforting.
Robin - Good morning! I wish I could remember how that went in the Dead Language. That’s a great story! And I imagine your vulture was approaching the ceremony with total sincerity (good god, let’s eat).
I’ve mentioned this New Yorker cartoon before: two cowboys on their horses, gazing off into the distance at a flock (or kettle) of circling dots, one saying: could be buzzards, could be grief counselors - hard to tell from here.
And with that - where does a “kettle” of buzzards come from? Where does “buzzards” come from? Back to the dictionary.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:20:03
Wayne - email - url
Mark - I didn’t mention it because I assumed it was a common sight. I have seen crows on roadkill, but here it’s a very common sight be driving along and disturb a few vultures, sometimes in the middle of the road. Poor old guys. Our don’t seem to have the foresight that Bev’s do, to do takeout.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:22:07
roger - email - url
so many people know when we arise. very comforting. great discussion. we are dictionary afficianados here too. we refer, in our irreverent way, to the big unabridged one as “the good book.” we also use the mac dictionary.
about eyes and reading......i’ve worn glasses, and now and then contacts, since something like 4th grade. now i have bifocals. i’m not fully understanding how i can be near-sighted and far-sighted at once. mostly i read without glasses. robin puts her glasses on to read fine print. i take mine off.
i think bald eagles go for live fish too. we have seen them walking on the beach, while we were walking on the beach.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:22:44
Wayne - email - url
Early indications
- nothing that zeroes in on “kettle” as a grouping of vultures, but as a pot for cooking:
many prior derivations, then... L. catillus, dim. of catinus, cotaininer for food. Seems appropriate, but surely there’s more somewhere.
Buzzards: ME. busard; OFr, busart, buson, buison; L. buteo - a kind of hawk. I’ll be.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:29:02
Wayne - email - url
roger - I shall now be referring to the dictionary as “the good book” forever more. Thank you!
I tripped lightly over Bev’s mention of the mac OS dictionary, because the microsoft version sucks so. There must be a formidable difference because as I say, there’s absolutely no way I’d ever waste my time on MS Windows dictionary (or for that matter, thesaurus, not when I have Roget’s at physical hand).
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:36:42
Mark - email
I found this:
"What do you call a group of vultures?
A group of vultures is called a “Venue”. Vultures circling on thermals of hot air are also referred to as a “Kettle”, because they resemble the rising bubbles in a boiling pot of water."
It’s from http://vulturesociety.homestead.com/Attract.html
I don’t know whether their explanation for these two collective nouns are legitimate.
I looked at a couple of articles about vultures in widipiedia. They mention that the American black vulture has a more southerly distribution than the turkey vulture. They also mention that the turkey vulture tends to dine alone, while the black vultures are more sociable. Is it possible that the groups of feeding vultures are actually black vultures?
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 10:41:11
roger - email - url
about the lenses and focus.....i seem to recall that a smaller aperture results in a deeper depth of focus. not sure how that relates to your own lenses.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 11:02:25
Wayne - email - url
Mark - is the venue, do you think, a group on the ground or when roosting, as opposed to the kettle in the air? The website you mentioned is great. Attracting, and Not Attracting, vultures.
Did you notice the subsequent questions, particularly about sense of smell? Old World vultures are descended from hawks and eagles, and have little sense of smell. New World vultures are essentially unrelated and, as Bev mentioned, descended from storks and ibises, and have a sense of smell. The two broad groups are not particularly related to each other but have a convergent evolution that has led to similar shapes.
roger - yes, a smaller aperture (higher f stop) gives you better depth of field. But it also closes down the light so you have to expose for longer times. With telephoto, even in bright light, that can become a much greater problem than with regular lenses. For the wood vamp picture, I didn’t mess around with that, and it shows, somewhat. The light was just not bright enough to decrease the aperture beyond what the camera was willing to do automatically.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 11:12:59
bev - email - url
Regarding vultures and roadkill..... we more often see them down in the ditch rather than up on the road. Having watched lone vultures tug at prey to remove them to a safe spot, I suspect that they do this quite frequently as they aren’t at all agile at avoiding vehicles. I think they are often unseen because they’re off the shoulder of the road. I’m not sure if vultures work cooperatively to remove larger carcasses, but I suppose it’s possible. Btw, when out west driving a section of a very out of the way backroad in the high desert, my friend and I came upon a flock of what looked to be a vulture and some crows. As we approached, we discovered that it was a Golden Eagle, surrounded by “tiny” Turkey Vultures. The vultures were keeping a very respectful distance from the eagle.
Wayne - Regarding the dictionary in the Mac O/S, it’s actually quite good. I should see if I can figure out more about its creation. Entries provide definitions - generally quite good ones - and often examples of proper usage of the word as a noun, adjective and so on. If the word is used in a popular expression of some sort, it includes that along with the meaning. When applicable, there’s a thesaurus entry below the definitions section, containing good lists of alternatives, and also antonyms. A nice thing about it is that includes many definitions for slang words, and also I must tell you an interesting little quirk about the Mac dictionary. It seems to have a liberal-minded slant to it! Here’s a typical example. For the word “protest” - here’s one of the definitions for the verb: publicly demonstrate strong objection to a policy or course of action adopted by those in authority: doctors and patients protested against plans to cut services at the hospital. I’ve encountered a few very interesting examples but can’t think of them at the moment.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 11:53:12
Mark - email
Bev, wikipedia says the Mac’s built-in dictionary is based on the New Oxford American Dictionary, Second Edition. And thanks for mentioning it, because I wasn’t aware that I (rather my computer) had a built-in dictionary.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 12:09:06
Mark - email
Well, I opened the dictionary application and there it says, New Oxford American Dictionary and Oxford American Writers Thesaurus. Somehow the dictionary was not enabled in my dashboard.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 12:16:08
bev - email - url
Mark - thanks for looking that up! I was wondering which dicitonary they used. I probably installed mine on the toolbar a long time ago. It’s certainly very convenient. I check something with it at least a couple of times each day.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 12:35:18
Wayne - email - url
I’ve never been anything but totally ambivalent about the ongoing war between macs and pcs, but this makes something of a difference!
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 15:46:11
Florida Cracker - email - url
If hunting makes you a raptor, then I don’t need a dictionary. I’ve witnessed a flock, venue, kettle of vultures knocking down a newborn calf and swarming it. No doubt they would have had a successful kill without intervention by we bipeds.
I’m fond of vultures too ... most of the time.
My favorite raptor is Raptor Red, by Bakker.
Friday: 9 February 2007 @ 18:47:48
pablo - email - url
Wow, I go away for a day and you get 40 responses! Is this a record, perhaps?
It used to be that yer blog was the first find when I googled “Niches,” but now it’s third. Time for some google bombing? Or is it their new algorithm that made the difference?
Saturday: 10 February 2007 @ 04:31:32
Wayne - email - url
FC - I haven’t seen it myself, but on reading it’s pretty clear that vultures can be damn aggressive. I imagine it’s not a pretty sight.
Pablo - I believe it was FC that got number 40. I do have to admit that I did my own form of bombing by replying to so many comments, so that number is a little artificial, but yes, it is close to a record.
The thing that always amazes me is that I simply have no way of predicting what’s going to evoke this kind of response. Is it, in this case, that the very perceptive people among us are always looking around and up and that everyone has noticed vultures? I have no idea, although it’s clearly the case that a lot of people knew more than I did! It is quite a rush when it happens.
Only third on the google hits now? Damn.
Saturday: 10 February 2007 @ 11:19:50